柯文思：你能够“不喜欢”我国，但请根据现实
导读：上一年武汉忽然迸发的新冠疫情，本年掀起轩然大波的新疆棉花……在不普通的2020年，咱们刚刚才智了西方言语怎样熟练地诽谤我国抗疫；而其自帝国主义年代就堆集起的言语权优势，再度借着本不新鲜的新疆论题显示其在国际舆论场的“威力”。我国怎样才干脱节“他人骂，咱们驳”的境况？在上一年武汉身陷疫情的最困难时期，英国导演柯文思曾带领摄制组深化武汉拍照纪录片，记载武汉实在产生的故事。继纪录片《仁慈的天使》之后，柯文思再度决议用镜头将在我国产生的本相留存，并带到外面唾沫横飞的国际，“咱们都面临巨大风险，咱们有必要说出本相”。而关于我国一直无法脱节的言语权窘境，从前有过西方媒体作业阅历的柯文思具有自己独特的见地。一周前在我国开展高峰论坛2021会场，观察者网现场专访了与会嘉宾柯文思。采访全文收拾如下，分中英双语，供读者参阅。
英国导演柯文思 （观察者网3月20日摄于北京钓鱼台国宾馆）
【采访/观察者网 白紫文】
观察者网：您这次拍照武汉纪录片最深入的形象是什么？
柯文思： 某种程度上，最令我形象深入的是进入武汉自身。其他人都未获准进入。为此，我要感谢咱们的我国制造团队，由于在国际上简直每家新闻组织——CNN、伦敦《泰晤士报》《卫报》《纽约时报》《洛杉矶时报》——都不同程度宣称我国应对这场全球性逝世要挟担任的时分，他们设法压服了一些不得不压服的身居高位之人，表达了咱们想记载严峻危机时刻下的这座城市（武汉），奉告人们终究产生了什么。
在咱们看来，许多（西方）媒体的点评适当不公平且难以置信。而答应一位西方人进入武汉并试着发现本相，也就需求许多的信赖。这是我以为最大的、令人形象深入的成果，但这并非我的成果。
而当咱们进入武汉之后，最令人形象深入的事，则是看到我国人应对疫情与西方人比较形成了180度的肯定反差。每个人或许都会有诉苦，没有人想被关在自己的公寓里长达76天，你无法责怪他们。可是他们依然做到了。他们这么做是由于被奉告这样最契合他们的最大利益，他们信赖政府。这让人形象很深入，由于在西方，没有人信赖政府。这座1100万人口的城市虽然或许不甘愿，但仍对政府抱有适当程度的信赖，这在西方是不或许遇到的。他们走进自己的公寓，关上门，待在那里，直到医师奉告他们能够安全出来。这很了不得。
观察者网：拍照这部纪录片之后，您收成了中西两方怎样的反应？
柯文思：这个问题我只能部分作答，由于电影还没有上映，但现已差不多完成了。一般咱们在影片定剪之前都会做一两场内部测试，约请了一些咱们十分信赖的朋友，看看他们的反应。这次也是相同。
我能够心安理得地说，看过这部片子的人都被影片里我国人的坦率、真挚震慑和感动到了，有时在一些咱们及时记载下的特别场景，人们还会落泪，由于咱们每天都能拍照到：ICU中有人死去，18岁、20岁、22岁的护理每天冒着生命风险……这是很大的赌注，并且反常风险，其时没有人真实了解这种病毒的才干，它的毒性有多大，以及假如不敏捷操控住，它将会杀死多少人。
在武汉进行拍照时的柯文思导演 图由制片方供给
总的形象是，这部电影会很耗费人的情感，我在许多采访中引用过威廉·莎士比亚的话：“一张图胜过千言万语。”你能够在新闻报导中描绘一些作业，但亲眼目睹它产生在你面前，亲眼目睹悲剧中的苦楚、高兴、满意或哀痛，是一种不同程度的情感强度。这是一部情感剧烈的电影。但实际上，它有一个夸姣的结局，由于76天之后，武汉康复了正常，这是国际上仅有一个（封城后）康复平常的城市。
观察者网：关于武汉抗击新冠肺炎疫情，咱们看到我国和西方讲的故事彻底不同。经过这部纪录片，您想要向全国际传递一个什么样的故事？
柯文思：我不觉得这部纪录片要讲的是个故事，它要讲的是实际。咱们所做的便是约请许多身在武汉的人叙述他们的阅历。有些人对产生的作业感到气愤，有些人感到惧怕。咱们遇到了一些我肯定会视之为英豪的人，他们冒着生命风险去救治、协助他人。
但我以为这部电影最要害的点在于，（它记载了）我国怎样被一场大规模的自然灾害打了个措手不及。全部“病毒是在（武汉）试验室里发明出来的”、“灾祸是人为差错导致”的说法都是胡言乱语。这是一场或许在地球上任何当地产生的自然灾害。咱们都才智了从前在非洲迸发过的埃博拉。而当疫情来暂时，咱们需求和时刻赛跑，测验科学地去操控它。
我国在2周内制造出了病毒基因图谱，之后封闭了整个城市，这在人类历史上是史无前例的，然后用两个月左右时刻操控住了疫情。这期间的确走过弯路犯差错，但这些过错也仅仅在（疫情迸发后）的3-5周内有过。美国犯了一整年的错，英国也相同。
这次疫情中的我国可谓一次难以想象的成功。调集国家才干，在武汉投入8万人处理疫情问题，对安排力的使用以及我国人民的英勇和职责拯救了这个国家。相同也拯救了武汉，武汉本或许会阅历一场肯定的灾祸，而灾祸之所以没有产生，是由于我国政府的决断，他们敏捷做出了困难的决议。
观察者网：作为我国媒体，咱们看到了西方媒体是怎样报导武汉抗击疫情的，看起来他们是在故意歪曲实际。
柯文思：当然，正是在歪曲实际。这是肯定可耻的做法。身为西方人，我感到惭愧，由于我也从前是一名记者。大部分时刻，我主要是一名电影人，但我曾在BBC和纽约的ABC新闻承受过记者练习，我知道作为记者能够耍弄些什么花招。我知道记者能够经过修改、改动呈现办法，让我说的一些话看上去和我刚刚实践表达的意思彻底相反，从而歪曲实际，这些技巧我都知道。
西方媒体社镜头下武汉抗疫一线的医护人员 图/美联社
可是这次的事情结果太大，咱们有必要担任，有必要说出本相，有必要在该称誉的当地给予称誉。你能够由于一些其他“很有争议的”议题而“不喜爱”我国，比方“盗取知识产权”、“操作汇率”……随意哪个点。要害在于，你要根据实际进行报导，并且有必要要诚笃。
武汉的实际则是，我国做出了人类历史上史无前例的行为。上一年我在我国日子了一年，安全、安稳，我能够去饭馆吃饭、看电影、在城里闲逛，而我现在定居在加拿大的家人仍被锁在家里，无法出门。
为什么我在我国的日子如此闲适？由于北京做出了担任任的决议。对我来说，这是我国的荣耀。我国能够敏捷布置资源、采纳举动、承当巨大职责，我国人民会恪守要求，由于他们感到安全、有保证，他们对政府抱有决计。于我而言，这并不寻常。
观察者网：我国现在面临的状况是，西方言语占有着优势，并且全国际都在讲英语。在您看来，我国人应该怎样向外界传递本相？
柯文思：我以为我国应该更坦白地面临自己的缺陷，面临我国做得不太好的方面，我国仍有许多需求改进的当地。西方需求看到我国政府和我国媒体不是“宣扬机器”，而是“本相机器”。而问题在于，我以为我国政府、或许还包含一些我国组织，关于西方的情绪会感到不必要的不安。就像我在讲演中说的，我国需求变得愈加自傲、更能主动出击，但不是以一种愤恨的姿势，而是坚定地陈说本相：“那不是实际，这才是实际。你们自行酌量。”
我国有许多值得自豪的东西。曩昔40年的复兴对任何西方人来说都是难以置信的，不幸的是也吓坏了西方人。西方不以为我国成为某种现代超级大国是件功德，觉得这很可怕，乃至或许很风险，由于西方现已习气了长时刻都是“榜首”，而忽然之间，沙盒里多了个新孩子，沙子踢到了咱们脸上。咱们不喜爱如此，但也有必要习气，由于我国不会消失。
2017年10月8日，采棉机在新疆哈密棉田里收成新棉 新华社蔡增乐摄
我以为咱们有必要承受这一新实际，那便是呈现了一个行事风格不令咱们喜爱的新式超级大国，但这是他们的干事办法，咱们有必要尊重它，并在全部咱们能够打交道的方面共处下去。比方应对气候改动、冲击国际恐怖主义，在许多范畴我国和西方都能够共存、互相协助且一起认同咱们之间存在差异。你能够与一个不同于你的人成婚，你和她不或许在每件事上都定见共同，但这并不意味着你们有必要要离婚，这只意味着你们俩有必要要处理互相的不合。
所以我感觉安静，虽然现在依然是个丑恶的时期。但那是由于咱们正在承继特朗普政府的毒副作用，一个既不会讲真话、也不信守许诺的人。他把我国当作替罪羊，当作西方全部失误的替罪羊。不幸的是，他得到了许多人的支撑，许多人信赖他。
观察者网：您的纪录片《仁慈的天使》于2019年上映。它叙述了两个大国合刁难中美两国人民的好处。您以为中美关系产生了哪些改动?
柯文思：很明显，特朗普改动了全部。咱们开端制造《仁慈的天使》时恰逢特朗普竞选。作为电影人，咱们知道自己正在阅历一段困难的时期，由于特朗普在改动（美国）叙事。他对互补性竞赛不感兴趣，他感兴趣的是非此即彼的零和竞赛。在特朗普看来，美国才应该是竞赛中的优胜者（top dog）。坦率地说，我国是被妖魔化了。而4年妖魔化我国的残渣、遗毒，正是咱们几天前看到的在亚特兰大遇害的8名亚洲人——他们乃至不全是我国人，由于在美国许多人无法区别泰国人、韩国人和我国人，但这并不重要，只需都是亚洲人。对亚洲人的轻视和暴力程度十分严峻，这种状况有必要改动。
因而，只有当人们认识到我国不是要挟而能够成为盟友，认识到我国人民也会和他们相同爱、恨、流血、逝世、感染病毒，认识到咱们都是共同利益的一部分的时分，西方叙事才干真实改动。我以为，这是仅有能够完成的办法，但需求几十年时刻。可是国际正在改动，我期望未来这两个巨大的国家之间能存在更多平衡。
观察者网：这几天咱们看到在阿拉斯加会晤的中美两国领导人互相间的“言语进犯”十分剧烈。拜登政府好像承继了唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）对我国盛气凌人的情绪。当美国政界人士决计对我国坚持进攻性的时分，您以为怎样做能够改进中美关系？
柯文思：首要，我并不以为拜登政府和特朗普政府类似。我的确以为，拜登想在国内传递一种“连续性信息”。假如拜登直接说“特朗普奉告你们的全部都是谎话，我要做的事正相反”，这在政治上是不明智的。你有必要教育你的选民。假如选民忽然信赖我国是一个怪物，你不能忽然说“不，我国不是怪物，我国是个会满意你全部希望的仙女”。没人会信赖的。
而我以为在这届政府背面，有一些民主党方面的学者关于我国对美国的影响有着更为实际的观点。我以为4年之后，中美关系会变得十分不同，但它需求逐步改变。我个人对布林肯有点了解，我不以为他是适宜的美国国务卿人选。他很聪明，但没有他自己以为的那么聪明。我以为他在阿拉斯加有处理不当之处。坦率地说，美国方面存在必定程度的屈尊与高傲的心态。但我国接招了，我国没有乱发脾气，仅仅表明：“咱们不会任由摆布。直视我的眼睛，平等地跟我说话。”
观察者网：咱们有庄严地进行了反击。
柯文思：是的，你说得很对。西方有必要开端与我国真实的政治打交道。我国不会消失，它会变得更强壮、更赋有，具有巨大的中产阶级，1亿人脱节了贫穷，这是一项多么了不得的统计数字。我国人遍及识字。我国注册的专利比西方更多。这个国家必定将在国际舞台上坚持抢先和中心位置。
咱们有必要开端了解我国。怎样做到呢？我以为这一点上没有太多的政治姿势可做。可是咱们能够叫停全部阻挠我国人到美国学习的约束，以及阻挠美国人到我国学习的约束，究竟下一代外交官或许就孕育于其间，他们或许需求在我国中学开端任教，了解我国人是什么样的人，这样他们有一天才干成为（胜任的）国务卿。
咱们能够中止责备孔子学院是风险的“第五纵队”“特务之种”，无论怎样这都是无稽之谈。咱们需求让更多的美国人来我国，也需求让更多的我国人去美国，然后缓慢地修正现在现已十分软弱、实践上现已决裂的两国关系。
观察者网：最终一个问题，您有什么特别想对我国、美国民众说的话？
柯文思：我不想仅仅说一些无聊的老生常谈，“让咱们一直友善，携手共进”之类的。我想说，为了挑拨美国人民和我国人民，西方投入了许多的作业、时刻和金钱，付出了巨大价值使美国人信赖我国人要“吃掉他们的午饭”的议程。这本便是无稽之谈。美国人十分需求防止在没有仔细审视实际的状况下，就容易承受对我国的批判和宣扬。不要轻信他人奉告你的关于我国的任何作业，由于那或许都不是真的。
采访英文原稿
Guancha Media：What is the most impressive thing in your mind when you think of the documentary you made this time?
Malcolm Clarke：Um,impressive. In on one level, the most impressive thing was actually getting into Wuhan. They were kicking everyone else out. For that, I owe a great debt to our Chinese production team. Because they they managed to persuade whoever you have to persuade at a very high level that we wanted to do something which would tell the truth about exactly what was happening in the city at a time of great crisis,when pretty much every journalistic organ in the world, CNN, the Times of London, the Guardian, New York times , Los Angeles Times, they were all, to various degrees,holding China responsible for unleashing a global death threat. And that seemed to us to be rather unfair and implausible. There needed to be a huge amount of trust to allow westerners to go in. And try to find out the truth. And so that was the biggest that was very impressive achievement, which was not my achievement.
When we got there, the most impressive thing was to see how in absolute 180 degree contrast it was in terms of the way the Chinese people responded in comparison to westerners. The degree of trust that Chinese people had in their government...I mean everyone probably complained, nobody wants to be locked in their apartment for 76 days. Who can blame them? But They did it. And they did it because they were told it was in their best interest and they believed the government. That was very impressive because in the west, nobody believes the government. So the notion that a city of 11 million people reluctantly but with a degree of kind of trust which was impossible to find in the west, they walked into their apartments and closed the doors and stayed there, until the medics told them it was safe to come out. And that was remarkable.
Guancha Media：What feedback have you received after making the document from both the Chinese side and the western side?
Malcolm Clarke：You're asking me a question that I can only partially answer because the film has not been released yet. It's almost finished. Normally before we have a picture-lock we would always organize one or two internal screenings and invite a few trusted friends for their feedback. Same this time.
Everyone who has seen it and I say this with a clear conscience, everyone who has seen it, it's shocked by the candor of the Chinese people in the movie, the honesty of the Chinese people in the movie， and really moved, sometimes to tears by the extraordinary situations that we were lucky enough to film, because we were filming people dying in the ICU every day, we were filming 18-year-old, 20-year-old, 22-year-old nurses, risking their lives. Every day. And the stakes was so high. It was so incredibly dangerous. Nobody really understood what this virus was capable of, how toxic it was, how many people it would kill if it was not controlled quickly.
The overall impression is that the film is emotionally exhausting, because one thing that I say, many times in many interviews, that is a quote from William Shakespeare, who wrote “a picture is worth 1,000 words”. You can describe something in the journalistic article in a story, but to actually see it happen in front of you, and to see the pain, the joy, the elation or the sadness of the tragedy in front of you, is on a different level of kind of emotional intensity. And this film is a very emotionally intense film. But actually, it has a happy ending, because after 76 days, Wuhan went back to business as usual, the only place in the world that did.
Guancha Media：The next question. We've heard different stories from the Chinese side and western side about Wuhan fighting the coronavirus. So what kind of story this documentary wanted to delivery to the whole world?
Malcolm Clarke：I don't really think it's a story. It's the truth. All we did was asking many people who were in Wuhan to describe their experience. There were some people who were very angry about what had happened. There were some people who were very frightened. We met people who I would absolutely regard and describe as heroes，who took risks with their own lives to treat other people, and to help other people.
But I think the overwhelming “take-away” of this movie, is that China was caught off guard with a natural disaster of huge proportions. All this nonsense about being a virus created in a laboratory and about human error and man-made a. It's nonsense. This was a natural disaster which could have occurred anywhere on the planet. Ebola happened in Africa, I we know, we know this. And then and, when it does, it's a race against time to try and scientifically contain it. China mapped the virus within 2 weeks, an entire city was locked down, unprecedented in human history. It
contained the virus in 2 months. There were mistakes made, but the mistakes were made over a 3.5-week period. There were mistakes made in America over one year period. In the UK, over one year period. China,in this particular instance, was an amazing success story, and the application of both state capacity, throwing 80000 people into Wuhan and saying fix this problem, the application of organization and bravery and responsibility on the part of the Chinese people saved China. It's actually saved Wuhan. Wuhan could have been experienced an absolute disaster. It didn't happen because of the decisiveness of the Chinese government who made hard decisions fast.
Guancha Media：As Chinese media， we've seen how western medias reporting Wuhan as it’s in combat with the virus. It seems that they are intentionally rejecting twisting the fact.
Malcolm Clarke：Of course, twisting the facts. I mean, Absolutely disgrace. Well, it makes me ashamed to be western because I I'm a journalist. Somewhat, I'm a filmmaker mostly, but I was trained as a journalist at the BBC and ABC News in New York. And I know the trick you can play as a journalist. I know the way you can bend the facts and bend the truth, and have me say something which is exactly the opposite of what I just said by the way it's edited and presented, I know all those tricks. But we're playing with great stakes here. We have to be responsible. And we have to tell the truth and we have to give credit where credit is due. Now you may not like China because of other things that it does,other things that are very controversial,like intellectual property theft for example, currency manipulation, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, name your kind of hot button issue. But the point is that you went on all those things, you have to examine them on the face of the fact and you have to be honest about them.
And on the facts of Wuhan, China did something unprecedented in human history. I've lived in China for the last year，safe，sound，eating in restaurants，going to movie，walking around the town, while my family, which now settles in Canada, is locked down still can't get out of the house.
Why? Because somebody in Beijing acted responsibly. All that's to me, that's the glory of China. That it can deploy those resources and that he can act with great speed and with great responsibility, and that its people follow it, because they feel safe and they feel secure. They have confidence in their government. That's really unusual.
Guancha Media：The situation that China faces right now is that, the western narrative is taking the high ground, and the world speaks English. From your point of view, how should Chinese deliver the truth to the world outside, do you think？
Malcolm Clarke：I think China has to be a little bit more honest about its shortcomings, about the things that are not great in China and there's a lot of them. I think we need to see the Chinese government and the Chinese media as being not a propaganda，but a truth machine. And the problem is that, the Chinese government, and maybe the some Chinese institutions, I feel, are unnecessarily insecure about that position visavis the west. I think they need, as I said, in my speech, I'd like to see China being more confident and more confrontational, but not in a not in an angry way, just calling the facts out.“That's not true. This is true,make up your own mind.”
China has so much to be proud of.And this renaissance in the last 40 years is just like mind boggling to anybody in the west, that unfortunately frightens people in the west. We don't think this is great that China's become a kind of a modern superpower. We think it's scary, and possibly dangerous. So that because we've been used to being number one for so long. So suddenly, as I said in my speech, there's a new kid in the sandbox. He's kicking sand in our faces and. We don't like it, but they're gonna have to get used to it, because China's not going to go away.
I think we have to accept the new reality of the fact that there is a new superpower which has a very different way of doing things that we don't like, but it's their way and we have to respect it and we have to get along and all the places that we can get along, like climate change for example like, combating international terrorism, there are so many places where China and the west can coexist and help each other and agree that we are going to have differences.I mean you can be married to someone and have differences. You don't agree about everything,it doesn't mean you get a divorce, it just means that you have to manage your differences.
So I feel still, despite the fact that this is an ugly period. But that's because we are inheriting the toxicity of the trump administration, a man who was incapable of telling the truth or walking in a straight line. He was using China as the scapegoat, as the whipping boy for anything that went wrong in the west. And unfortunately, he had a lot of support, and a lot of people believed him.
Guancha Media：Your documentary Better Angels released on 2019. It tells stories about how beneficial it could be to both Chinese and American people when these two big countries cooperated. From your observation, what has been changed in the China-US relationship？
Malcolm Clarke：Obviously，Trump changed everything and we started making Better Angels when trump was campaigning. We knew that we were in as filmmakers a rough ride, because he was changing the narrative. He wasn't interested in competition in complementary values, he was interested in zero sum competition. And it was them or us. From his perspective, America wanted it to be them who were top dog. China was demonized frankly. And the detritus of that, the fallout of that, 4 years of toxic demonization of China was exactly what we saw in Atlanta several days ago when eight Asians and who weren't even all Chinese—because many people in the United States can't tell the difference between a Thai, a Korean and a Chinese—it doesn't matter. It's just you’re all Asian. There's that level of discrimination and violence against Asians and it's just awful. That has to change.
So that narrative can only really change if people recognize that China is not a threat, that it can be an ally, and that the Chinese people love, hate, bleed, die, get the virus, just like you do, that we're all part of a kind of common wealth. That's the only way that's going to take decades, I think. But the world is changing and in the future, I hope that there will be more of a balance between those two great nations.
Guancha Media：We've seen the Chinese and US leaders meeting each other in Alaska in these 2 days and their “word attack” to each other is, fierce. It seems that Biden administration has taken the legacy of Donald Trump and adopted aggressive attitude towards China. So when US politicians have determined to be aggressive against China, what do you think can promote this relationship?
Malcolm Clarke：First of all, I actually don't agree that Biden administration and the trump administration are similar. I do think that they want to send a message domestically of continuity. I don't think it's prudent politically for Biden to say everything trump told you was a lie, and I'm going to do something different. You have to educate your electorate. And if the electorate suddenly believes that China is a monster, you can't suddenly say no, China's not a monster, China's a fairy who was going to grant all your wishes. Nobody's going to believe that.
But I think behind the administration, underneath the administration, there are scholars on the Democratic side who have a much more realistic view of what China can be to America. And I think 4 years from now, it will be quite different, but it needs to evolve. And personally, I know Blinken a little bit and I don't think he's the right guy. He's smart, but he's not as smart as he thinks he is. I think he mishandled Alaska. Frankly, I think there was a certain level of condescension and arrogance on the American side. But China dealt with it, China did not lose its temper. China just said “We aren't gonna do that, Look me in the eye and talk to me as an equal.”
Guancha Media：We fight back with dignity.
Malcolm Clarke：Yes，and I think that's exactly the right note. I think the west has to start dealing with the real politic of China. China is not going away. It's going more powerful, wealthier. There's a budgeting middle class,100 million people pulled out of poverty, which is extraordinary statistic. There's universal literacy. There's more patents being registered in China than in the west. This country is here to stay front and central on the world stage.
We have to start to understand it. And how we do that? I think at this, there's not an awful lot of huge political gestures that can be made. But if we can for example stop all these restrictions that stop Chinese people going to America to learn and that stop American people from coming to China to learn, because this next generation of diplomats need to start somewhere. They need to start teaching in Junior high schools in China, and learning who the Chinese people are so that they can one day be the secretary of state.
So I think we can stop accusing Confucius institutes of being dangerous “5th column”, “the seeds of espionage”, which is a nonsense anyway. I think we need to get more Americans into China，we need to get more Chinese into America, and then slowly build on those very fragile foundations, because the relationship right now is effectively broken.
Guancha Media：For the last question, do you have any specific words for Chinese people and American people, respectively?
Malcolm Clarke：I think I don't want to just say something which is a kind of a bromide, which is just silly，“Let's all get on. Hold hands together.” What I would say is that there's been a tremendous amount of work and time and money spent to divide American people from Chinese people. There has been an agenda which has been pursued at great expense to have Americans believe the Chinese want to eat their lunch. And it's nonsense. I think certainly Americans need not to accept easy criticisms and easy propagandistic views of China without seriously examining their own truth for themselves. Don't take anything that anyone tells you about China at face value. Because it's probably not true.
告发/反应
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